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From: Masahiko Sawada <sawada.mshk@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2026 13:40:47 -0700
Message-ID: <CAD21AoC_HwTLRSWmD0d=E0Adftu0LE=Ep9FWJf2m1BJyq7x4Gw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Support logical replication of DDLs, take2
To: Amit Kapila <amit.kapila16@gmail.com>
Cc: Vitaly Davydov <v.davydov@postgrespro.ru>, Ashutosh Bapat <ashutosh.bapat.oss@gmail.com>, 
	PostgreSQL Hackers <pgsql-hackers@lists.postgresql.org>
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On Wed, Apr 29, 2026 at 9:44=E2=80=AFPM Amit Kapila <amit.kapila16@gmail.co=
m> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2026 at 3:19=E2=80=AFAM Masahiko Sawada <sawada.mshk@gmai=
l.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 27, 2026 at 11:32=E2=80=AFPM Amit Kapila <amit.kapila16@gma=
il.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes, there will be a maintenance cost of JSON-based deparsing
> > > approach. But note that multiple senior people (Alvaro Herrera, Rober=
t
> > > Haas) [1] seems to favor that approach. So, I am not sure we can
> > > conclude to abandon that approach without those people or some other
> > > senior people agreeing to abandon it. To be clear, I am not against
> > > considering a new/different approach for DDL replication but just tha=
t
> > > it is not clear that old/existing approach can be ruled out without
> > > more discussion on it,
> >
> > Thank you for pointing it out. Just to be clear, IIUC what they liked
> > was to use JSON string representation of DDLs, but not JSON string
> > representation of DDLs that are deparsed from parse nodes, no?
> >
>
> As per my understanding, we built deparsing stuff with a goal of
> supporting DDL replication and Alvaro was the original author of that
> work, see [1]. The benefit it provides flexibility in terms of
> filtering by decoding plugin, if any, or changing the DDL (like
> schema-mapping) during apply. It is not clear to me if we can achive
> similar level of flexibility with other approach.

I think we can generate the same JSON-string representation of DDLs
from catalog information, it would also require a lot of code, though.
It would be independent from parse nodes and if we implement it as an
option for pg_get_xxx_ddl() functionality it would be able to be
reused by other tools too.

>
> >
> > >
> > >  We would need to maintain the JSON serialization code whenever
> > > > creating or modifying parse nodes, regardless of whether the change=
s
> > > > were related to DDL replication. IIUC, this was the primary reason =
the
> > > > feature didn't cross the finish line.
> > > >
> > > > Additionally, I think there is another design issue: it is not
> > > > output-plugin agnostic. Since the deparsed DDL was written by a
> > > > logical-replication-specific event trigger, third-party logical
> > > > decoding plugins cannot easily detect DDL events.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Why RmgrId like RM_LOGICALDDLMSG_ID and XLOG_LOGICAL_DDL_MESSAGE wal
> > > info is not sufficient for this? Decoder will add a message like
> > > REORDER_BUFFER_CHANGE_DDL which can be used to detect DDL message, no=
?
> >
> > Right, but I'm not sure this is a good developer experience that
> > additional steps are required to capture DDL events for other plugins
> > while changes of  INSERT/UPDATE/DELETE/TRUNCATE are passed from the
> > logical decoding by default.
> >
>
> Yes, there could probably be additional steps for plugins but they
> must be doing a few things already which are defined at publication
> level like column lists, row filtering, something related to RI, etc.

I think those publication-level features operate at a somewhat
different layer than the fundamental mechanism of capturing DDL
events. Plugins filter rows or columns based on configuration, but the
logical decoding itself guarantees that the DML events are reliably
passed to them. Given that the TRUNCATE in logical replication already
works so, I guess DDL should have the same fundamental guarantee.

it's unclear to me how plugins could reliably manage these event
triggers. While a plugin might create an event trigger during the
startup callback if it doesn't exist, it cannot drop it during the
shutdown callback. We also cannot establish a dependency between an
event trigger and a logical replication slot. We would likely need to
invent a new plugin callback specifically invoked at slot drop time
just to clean it up. Also, if different plugins want to capture DDL
events, they could end up registering different event triggers,
emitting multiple DDL WAL records for the same DDL event.

> To reduce the plugin work, one naive idea is to let the event triggers
> be registered at first logical slot creation or may be at init time of
> plugin.

I think we need to note that replication slot creation and drop are
non-transactional operations. We need to make sure that both logical
slots and the event trigger are not orphaned in error or server crash
cases.

Regards,

--=20
Masahiko Sawada
Amazon Web Services: https://aws.amazon.com