Received: from malur.postgresql.org ([217.196.149.56]) by arkaria.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1vbAyV-002c3v-26 for pgsql-advocacy@arkaria.postgresql.org; Thu, 01 Jan 2026 05:11:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=malur.postgresql.org) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtp (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1vbAxT-007XYF-2K for pgsql-advocacy@arkaria.postgresql.org; Thu, 01 Jan 2026 05:10:48 +0000 Received: from magus.postgresql.org ([2a02:c0:301:0:ffff::29]) by malur.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1vbAxT-007XY7-1D for pgsql-advocacy@lists.postgresql.org; Thu, 01 Jan 2026 05:10:48 +0000 Received: from mail-pg1-x535.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::535]) by magus.postgresql.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1vbAxR-003sW9-10 for pgsql-advocacy@lists.postgresql.org; Thu, 01 Jan 2026 05:10:47 +0000 Received: by mail-pg1-x535.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-c0bccb8037eso10540696a12.1 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 2025 21:10:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1767244243; x=1767849043; darn=lists.postgresql.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=lFO//xt61HH7bMa3E864TM4Afzp5tC69ed8yDdPtnbc=; b=W9Jhyc35f8hYTsUPHs1vKGgPjuAiBh/VmLGDvPj+A+AhHSAkEnrKQAPAuNN7FSA8NE 2Di0F4vz/LxTe+jrrq7Cho8M54z2qGVhZPoaNqeFwpsRQafCflcaROtBmtC44lXXvkbI 9Plvhy2uiH0z/VLnMLHyFdgNnfmTZfJ8NbdcP8yzyGdVc6zS3mTCvnXzMGscsQPbN4/D GB18CtVGQ7RUbDUpwTbHnYyAzSnjYLJHU+7Xyw9g+Drkb8tedY51Hi7JA+52y3vVbNP+ WSvMZlBus7KnOVsT3wMS/qmjWtfO03pAtRIblA271H5A0wEyM5c80Zd55S88qTYFURAl 4lig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1767244243; x=1767849043; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-gg:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=lFO//xt61HH7bMa3E864TM4Afzp5tC69ed8yDdPtnbc=; b=GvM+I5i1XwEdpwZqyy40HcLgcf5ApdLKO9xnksfz3Do1urUU+sJMYZ8ovnFxxXjy5w zri4GUi7xBZX8iHZYu4Nq7ISvpwqlUFyfjy/QISB/5b9HB1UZU7T6zdRuRFRZ9UzHm+a aOv0js3T2Iy4bJoNnNlMtAnb0uLppNhEUcwqKEMxBxwrXAv1WCfRyvqA+M3huhGFn0Sy jaR6Amn4Kk2iouhw4r3kJMml24JCRMdyoklIg4anZ+yB1/awSZeMJF43RGx6T0Q5XcKY gaGWsRR47PeXIbaYUKsiMSghRX9x3aKlYXVXcBGFeB2Nkqs6XBwLcYEOWQSnd4ObeSSm FSiw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVeaM8XHYweAKAmj5lQk5ZNUxNFqGSRzL/FMG94Inmi6JNzAB1N9e8HL7zVhwf6zk/v07Jb/am6QGvr2gcgCA==@lists.postgresql.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YydnC6fbRdIRa6tmh7msbe9k8cem9WFYYAioP0iigURjRgtDZIb mmFPbzUNMMe2SXAYXj0aLjNLfp0UmObJ4YkYMNnU/8SbEm3jVbBgyrzKXrr4bhhYBLVb+eEmZ5b KKHDjqBEiUKXlP0lwJVwxWnDCueBjxUg= X-Gm-Gg: AY/fxX56fIPsftKxbfOuhkIaoTsHyKNrRsEgijg3C861nOnUexsuQWeIYmBdsPHVuHB czeUvt1LdoTHXqgUIgh4bQk6gA/t/DEtQnJF3RKrQNdZ1YcMr81wKlvPokHztylzY+R8pjnO2iK NpsTeJLIww7sDcTjLdoxfUvq5c+Nc20ULORiBs/v+8XDSaJXU9qvQ9DjQigva61SzI61NtGRwXl ZN2GeYzKhQQCV9uxXaMLXxM/3L02UqeYnsY8aieSj6Jz7+Oxg8ws4yyFSz3NgB95/1cpKQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IE7dZbpnb+PeXs2o2lF7e+uBIEIQDXP+fD2szTEaC2TQBZOL/knJePZxvJUG6weVznKc1t+SFIDI+UG2WUl954= X-Received: by 2002:a05:7301:52c6:b0:2b0:4ae9:efb9 with SMTP id 5a478bee46e88-2b05ec653f6mr26074750eec.43.1767244242897; Wed, 31 Dec 2025 21:10:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Chris Travers Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2026 12:10:30 +0700 X-Gm-Features: AQt7F2rEGbN-a-WAyi3_C7i_bqBuvkznhAWbHQoqnlFEUDuuIz3-7RyvUr-16QM Message-ID: Subject: Re: Non-Compete Challenges for Community Work To: Bruce Momjian Cc: Dave Page , Robert Haas , Umair Shahid , Greg Sabino Mullane , Cornelia Biacsics , PostgreSQL Advocacy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000054510806474c9d45" List-Id: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Post: List-Owner: List-Archive: Archived-At: Precedence: bulk --00000000000054510806474c9d45 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Granted it was from another era but when I worked at Microsoft 2001-2003 my noncompete did include requiring permission for open source contributions. Generally speaking it may still be the case for some proprietary software houses out of fears of IP loss. Best Wishes, Chris Travers Efficito: Hosted Accounting and ERP. Robust and Flexible. No vendor lock-in. http://www.efficito.com/learn_more On Thu, Jan 1, 2026, 2:17=E2=80=AFAM Bruce Momjian wrote= : > On Mon, Dec 8, 2025 at 04:59:33PM +0000, Dave Page wrote: > > On Mon, 8 Dec 2025 at 16:57, Robert Haas wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2025 at 9:54=E2=80=AFAM Dave Page wrote: > > > I don't think she's wrong - I just think the issue is much smalle= r > than > > suggested and that there are likely better places to spend time, > effort, > > and money at the moment (such as, I believe, the average age of our > > contributors being on the rise). More and more jurisdictions seem t= o > be > > banning non-competes (or regularly ruling against them) for > employees, so > > it seems to me that the problem is slowly going away anyway. > > > > It's all a bit related, though. Older, more established contributor= s > > are more likely to have leverage that they can use to preserve thei= r > > employment options, or the resources to get through a period of > > unemployment or under-employment. Younger or less well-established > > contributors are more likely to get pushed out of the community by = an > > adverse event (such as an employer or ex-employer with a good > lawyer). > > > > True, that could definitely be a factor. > > I thought about this for a while. I think there are several factors: > > * Many people have companies based in jurisdictions that don't enforce > non-competes. > > * Many people have not read their employment contracts and will not > find out about non-compete restrictions until they leave their > employer. > > * Because broad non-compete restrictions are often unenforceable, newer > non-compete restrictions are more limited, which makes them less of a > problem. > > I don't know if things are improving and we can ignore the issue, or if > there is some action that can be taken. Ideas are: > > * New employees should read employment contracts and ideally have them > reviewed by an employment lawyer. It might be difficult, but not > being able to find a suitable job for a year is clearly worse. > > * Somehow incentivize companies to limit their non-compete restrictions > to be more limited, and hopefully not block community involvement. > > -- > Bruce Momjian https://momjian.us > EDB https://enterprisedb.com > > Do not let urgent matters crowd out time for investment in the future. > > > --00000000000054510806474c9d45 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Granted it was from another era but when I worked at= Microsoft 2001-2003 my noncompete did include requiring permission for ope= n source contributions.

= Generally speaking it may still be the case for some proprietary software h= ouses out of fears of IP loss.


Best Wishes,Chris Travers

Efficito: =C2=A0Hosted Accounting= and ERP.=C2=A0 Robust and Flexible.=C2=A0 No vendor lock-in.

On Thu, Ja= n 1, 2026, 2:17=E2=80=AFAM Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> wrote:
On Mon, Dec=C2=A0 8, 2025 at 04:59:33PM +0000, Dave Page wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Dec 2025 at 16:57, Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Mon, Dec 8, 2025 at 9:54=E2=80=AFAM Dave Page &l= t;dpage@pgadmin.org> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> I don't think she's wrong - I just thi= nk the issue is much smaller than
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0suggested and that there are likely better places t= o spend time, effort,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and money at the moment (such as, I believe, the av= erage age of our
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0contributors being on the rise). More and more juri= sdictions seem to be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0banning non-competes (or regularly ruling against t= hem) for employees, so
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0it seems to me that the problem is slowly going awa= y anyway.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It's all a bit related, though. Older, more est= ablished contributors
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0are more likely to have leverage that they can use = to preserve their
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0employment options, or the resources to get through= a period of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0unemployment or under-employment. Younger or less w= ell-established
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0contributors are more likely to get pushed out of t= he community by an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adverse event (such as an employer or ex-employer w= ith a good lawyer).
>
> True, that could definitely be a factor.=C2=A0

I thought about this for a while.=C2=A0 I think there are several factors:<= br>
*=C2=A0 Many people have companies based in jurisdictions that don't en= force
=C2=A0 =C2=A0non-competes.

*=C2=A0 Many people have not read their employment contracts and will not =C2=A0 =C2=A0find out about non-compete restrictions until they leave their=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0employer.

*=C2=A0 Because broad non-compete restrictions are often unenforceable, new= er
=C2=A0 =C2=A0non-compete restrictions are more limited, which makes them le= ss of a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0problem.

I don't know if things are improving and we can ignore the issue, or if=
there is some action that can be taken.=C2=A0 Ideas are:

*=C2=A0 New employees should read employment contracts and ideally have the= m
=C2=A0 =C2=A0reviewed by an employment lawyer.=C2=A0 It might be difficult,= but not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0being able to find a suitable job for a year is clearly worse.=

*=C2=A0 Somehow incentivize companies to limit their non-compete restrictio= ns
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to be more limited, and hopefully not block community involvem= ent.

--
=C2=A0 Bruce Momjian=C2=A0 <bruce@momjian.us>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 https://momjian.us
=C2=A0 EDB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://enterprisedb.com

=C2=A0 Do not let urgent matters crowd out time for investment in the futur= e.


--00000000000054510806474c9d45--